Hello Robert. I knew that there was a successful mission of jesuits in China but I didn't know how and why it ended. Also China is on the news daily for all sorts of reasons and probably will be even more in the future when they will be global hegemon. It was very interesting to find out about main principles of their philosophy and how it is applied.
Thank you for a very interesting and clear insight into Chinese culture and mentality. It would be interesting to know how becoming a Catholic would affect a Chinese person's perspective on life.
Does that include the dead generations as well? I will speak of them, as no one else here seems to be interested in the slightest.
Estimates of deaths under PRC rule since Mao Zedong's death in 1976 vary widely, with sources citing at least hundreds of thousands from political campaigns and the 1989 Tiananmen Square crackdown.
Estimated Deaths from
Political campaigns: Hundreds of thousands
Tiananmen Square crackdown (1989) Up to 2,600 reported
Context of Deaths
Political Campaigns: Various political movements and purges have led to significant loss of life, with estimates suggesting that hundreds of thousands may have died as a result of these actions.
Tiananmen Square (1989): The crackdown on pro-democracy demonstrators resulted in a reported death toll of up to 2,600, although some estimates suggest higher numbers.
Excerpt; The communist Chinese government has never been respectful of human life, murdering as many as 35,000,000 people since the communist seized control over the whole country in 1949. The killing lessened after Mao Tse-tung's death in 1976, but still a citizen's life was conditional on obedience to the Communist Party. In 1989 students and supporters who were carrying out large scale pro-democracy demonstrations in Tiananmen Square, Beijing, were attacked and massacred by the Army. The Chinese Red Cross claimed that 2,600 were slaughtered. Thousands were arrested and sent to forced labor camps, and hundreds were executed. Here (in the link) is shown all that is left of a demonstrator and his bicycle. Documentation: China's Bloody Century. Source: "Tiananmen, April-June 1989".
Excerpt: We have known for some time that Mao Zedong, founder of the People’s Republic of China, was one of the last century’s most brutal and vicious mass murderers. In 2005, Jung Chang and Jon Halliday’s biography of Mao was published in this country to wide acclaim, and for the first time, many of the myths surrounding his rise to power and the nature of his rule after 1949 were brought to light. The authors estimated that Mao "was responsible for over 70 million deaths in peacetime, more than any other twentieth-century leader."
Mao Zedong's policies during the Great Leap Forward (1958–1962) are estimated to have caused tens of millions of deaths, with scholarly estimates ranging from about 30 million to over 45 million fatalities due to starvation and overwork.
Other Periods of Violence
In addition to the Great Leap Forward, other events during Mao's rule also contributed to the death toll:
Cultural Revolution (1966–1976): This period involved widespread persecution and violence, leading to millions of deaths, though exact numbers remain uncertain.Political Purges and Campaigns: Various campaigns initiated by Mao, including the Anti-Rightist Movement, resulted in numerous deaths and suffering.
Chronology of Mass Killings during the Chinese Cultural Revolution (1966-1976)
Overall, estimates suggest that Mao's policies and campaigns may have led to the deaths of over 70 million people during his leadership, making him one of the most lethal leaders in history.
All this was fascinating. I am well aware that China has its own traditions and has not really abandoned them, even though communism did its best, but atheist communism is what has shaped modern China nearing 80 years. It has made huge changes that cannot cleverly be explained away, as you have attempted to do by finding similarities between historical, traditional China, Catholicism and the State.
All cultures do have similarities when you go back in history. The family, patriarchy being a core foundation that shapes society is not unique. A govt that has been brutal, decimating its citizens like Mao did can hardly be looked upon as an honourable father figure, that you must not criticize. A govt that enforces a strict one child policy with a strong preference for sons only can hardly be looked upon as a member of the family.
China's one-child policy (1979–2015) intensified a long-standing cultural preference for sons, leading to widespread sex-selective abortions, the abandonment or placement of girls in orphanages, and cases of female infanticide.
Methods of Elimination: The combination of strict quotas and the later availability of ultrasound technology led to a sharp rise in sex-selective abortions. Postnatal neglect, abandonment, and infanticide also occurred, particularly in rural areas.
Orphanages and Adoptions: Thousands of abandoned Chinese girls were placed into state orphanages, and many were subsequently adopted by families internationally, including in the United States.
Skewed Sex Ratios: The imbalance resulted in millions of "missing girls" and a severely skewed sex ratio at birth, leaving a large surplus of tens of millions of men relative to women.
How did you miss this? Communist China was attacking the family by introducing this one child policy and forcing many toward regular abortions, orphanges/adoptions for unwanted female children.
It triggered a massive surge in contraceptive usage, clinical abortions, orphanage abandonments, and domestic and international adoptions.
To enforce compliance, the Chinese government shifted from voluntary family planning to highly structured, coercive medical mandates.
The "IUD After One" Rule: Under tightened family planning laws in 1982, women who had given birth to their first child were legally required to be fitted with an Intrauterine Device (IUD).
Massive Scale: In peak enforcement years like 1983 alone, Chinese medical authorities performed 17.8 million IUD insertions and 20.7 million sterilizations (primarily targeting women).
Systemic Surveillance: Women of childbearing age in rural and urban sectors were subjected to mandatory, cyclical ultrasound examinations (often every three months) to ensure IUDs had not been secretly removed or tampered with.
High Rates of Induced and Forced Abortions
When contraceptive methods failed or couples conceived an "unauthorized" pregnancy without a state birth permit, the pressure to abort was immense.
Coercive Terminations: Local family planning officials faced strict penalties if their regions exceeded birth quotas. This dynamic led to widespread forced or heavily coerced abortions, sometimes carried out late into the second or third trimester.
Sex-Selective Abortion: Due to deep-rooted patriarchal traditions, particularly in rural agrarian communities, families heavily favored having a son to carry on the family name and provide elder care. The proliferation of ultrasound technology in the 1980s allowed parents to determine the sex of the fetus, resulting in a staggering surge of sex-selective abortions of female fetuses. This ultimately skewed China's sex ratio at birth to an unnatural high of roughly 114 to 118 boys for every 100 girls.
I was also aware that Matteo Ricci went to great lengths to understand the people he was living amongst and aiming to bring to Christ. A missionary is going to struggle if he doesn't try to get to know the people and culture that shaped them. By learning about their culture, language, traditions, you ingratiate yourself to them and become a true friend, not merely a foreigner who has barged in and brings in new ways and culture but cares not at all about the ties that bind a people already. Ricci was wise to do so.
Excerpt; When Beijing insists that it, and not the Vatican, decides who may use that title, it is following this old rule exactly. To the Chinese state, the wrong person in the wrong office is not a small paperwork problem.[The Chinese Communist State]
It is the danger Zhengming was invented to stop.
The Chinese State do not recognize Christ as God, or Christ as having any authority over their lives whatsoever. You haven't mentioned Christ in relation to the Communist State. How did you avoid this?
Excerpt: Seen this way, a citizen who defies the government is not using his rights. He is like a son rebelling against his father. That explains why Chinese state media describes protesters as betraying the family bond, rather than as people who just disagree about a policy.
You and the current govt of China seem to be fine with treating its people like this:
The Chinese government, led by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP), utilizes a comprehensive, high-tech apparatus to maintain political control, enforce social stability, and suppress any perceived opposition. This system targets political dissidents, human rights defenders, and religious groups—including underground Catholics—through sophisticated digital censorship, legal mechanisms, and harsh punitive detention.
1. Digital Censorship and Mass Surveillance
China maintains what is considered the world's most sophisticated infrastructure for information control.
The Great Firewall: The government controls all internet gateways into the country, blocking foreign social media networks, news outlets, and websites (such as Google, Wikipedia, Facebook, and the BBC).
Platform Self-Censorship: Domestically, Chinese tech companies and social media platforms (like WeChat and Weibo) are legally mandated to self-censor. Automated AI algorithms and human review teams continuously delete posts, scrub keywords, and ban accounts discussing sensitive topics.
Real-Name Registration: Citizens must link their real identification documents to phone numbers and internet accounts. This removes anonymity, allowing authorities to easily track who posts dissenting content.
Mass Biometric Surveillance: Millions of AI-powered facial recognition cameras, voiceprint recognition tools, and DNA databases allow the state to track citizens' physical movements and associations in real-time.
2. Control and Persecution of Catholics
Religious practice in China is heavily regulated under a state policy known as "Sinicization," which requires all religious organizations to prioritize allegiance to the atheist CCP above all else.
The government officially recognizes five religions, including Catholicism, but only through state-run associations—specifically the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association.
Article: It’s High Time We Tell the Truth about the Evils of Marx and Marxism by Paul Kengor
In The Devil and Karl Marx, I’ve attempted to do just that.
Fascinating!
What did you like about it?
Hello Robert. I knew that there was a successful mission of jesuits in China but I didn't know how and why it ended. Also China is on the news daily for all sorts of reasons and probably will be even more in the future when they will be global hegemon. It was very interesting to find out about main principles of their philosophy and how it is applied.
Thank you again
Thank you for a very interesting and clear insight into Chinese culture and mentality. It would be interesting to know how becoming a Catholic would affect a Chinese person's perspective on life.
Why China still thinks in generations?
Does that include the dead generations as well? I will speak of them, as no one else here seems to be interested in the slightest.
Estimates of deaths under PRC rule since Mao Zedong's death in 1976 vary widely, with sources citing at least hundreds of thousands from political campaigns and the 1989 Tiananmen Square crackdown.
Estimated Deaths from
Political campaigns: Hundreds of thousands
Tiananmen Square crackdown (1989) Up to 2,600 reported
Context of Deaths
Political Campaigns: Various political movements and purges have led to significant loss of life, with estimates suggesting that hundreds of thousands may have died as a result of these actions.
Tiananmen Square (1989): The crackdown on pro-democracy demonstrators resulted in a reported death toll of up to 2,600, although some estimates suggest higher numbers.
Excerpt; The communist Chinese government has never been respectful of human life, murdering as many as 35,000,000 people since the communist seized control over the whole country in 1949. The killing lessened after Mao Tse-tung's death in 1976, but still a citizen's life was conditional on obedience to the Communist Party. In 1989 students and supporters who were carrying out large scale pro-democracy demonstrations in Tiananmen Square, Beijing, were attacked and massacred by the Army. The Chinese Red Cross claimed that 2,600 were slaughtered. Thousands were arrested and sent to forced labor camps, and hundreds were executed. Here (in the link) is shown all that is left of a demonstrator and his bicycle. Documentation: China's Bloody Century. Source: "Tiananmen, April-June 1989".
https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM1.TAN.TANK.CRUSHES.HTM
These figures highlight the ongoing concerns regarding human rights and the treatment of citizens in China since the end of Mao's era.
Mao's 'Great Leap Forward' and the Power of History
https://www.hudson.org/node/34988
Excerpt: We have known for some time that Mao Zedong, founder of the People’s Republic of China, was one of the last century’s most brutal and vicious mass murderers. In 2005, Jung Chang and Jon Halliday’s biography of Mao was published in this country to wide acclaim, and for the first time, many of the myths surrounding his rise to power and the nature of his rule after 1949 were brought to light. The authors estimated that Mao "was responsible for over 70 million deaths in peacetime, more than any other twentieth-century leader."
Mao Zedong's policies during the Great Leap Forward (1958–1962) are estimated to have caused tens of millions of deaths, with scholarly estimates ranging from about 30 million to over 45 million fatalities due to starvation and overwork.
Other Periods of Violence
In addition to the Great Leap Forward, other events during Mao's rule also contributed to the death toll:
Cultural Revolution (1966–1976): This period involved widespread persecution and violence, leading to millions of deaths, though exact numbers remain uncertain.Political Purges and Campaigns: Various campaigns initiated by Mao, including the Anti-Rightist Movement, resulted in numerous deaths and suffering.
Chronology of Mass Killings during the Chinese Cultural Revolution (1966-1976)
https://www.sciencespo.fr/mass-violence-war-massacre-resistance/en/document/chronology-mass-killings-during-chinese-cultural-revolution-1966-1976.html
Total Estimates
Overall, estimates suggest that Mao's policies and campaigns may have led to the deaths of over 70 million people during his leadership, making him one of the most lethal leaders in history.
All this was fascinating. I am well aware that China has its own traditions and has not really abandoned them, even though communism did its best, but atheist communism is what has shaped modern China nearing 80 years. It has made huge changes that cannot cleverly be explained away, as you have attempted to do by finding similarities between historical, traditional China, Catholicism and the State.
All cultures do have similarities when you go back in history. The family, patriarchy being a core foundation that shapes society is not unique. A govt that has been brutal, decimating its citizens like Mao did can hardly be looked upon as an honourable father figure, that you must not criticize. A govt that enforces a strict one child policy with a strong preference for sons only can hardly be looked upon as a member of the family.
China's one-child policy (1979–2015) intensified a long-standing cultural preference for sons, leading to widespread sex-selective abortions, the abandonment or placement of girls in orphanages, and cases of female infanticide.
Methods of Elimination: The combination of strict quotas and the later availability of ultrasound technology led to a sharp rise in sex-selective abortions. Postnatal neglect, abandonment, and infanticide also occurred, particularly in rural areas.
Orphanages and Adoptions: Thousands of abandoned Chinese girls were placed into state orphanages, and many were subsequently adopted by families internationally, including in the United States.
Skewed Sex Ratios: The imbalance resulted in millions of "missing girls" and a severely skewed sex ratio at birth, leaving a large surplus of tens of millions of men relative to women.
How did you miss this? Communist China was attacking the family by introducing this one child policy and forcing many toward regular abortions, orphanges/adoptions for unwanted female children.
It triggered a massive surge in contraceptive usage, clinical abortions, orphanage abandonments, and domestic and international adoptions.
To enforce compliance, the Chinese government shifted from voluntary family planning to highly structured, coercive medical mandates.
The "IUD After One" Rule: Under tightened family planning laws in 1982, women who had given birth to their first child were legally required to be fitted with an Intrauterine Device (IUD).
Massive Scale: In peak enforcement years like 1983 alone, Chinese medical authorities performed 17.8 million IUD insertions and 20.7 million sterilizations (primarily targeting women).
Systemic Surveillance: Women of childbearing age in rural and urban sectors were subjected to mandatory, cyclical ultrasound examinations (often every three months) to ensure IUDs had not been secretly removed or tampered with.
High Rates of Induced and Forced Abortions
When contraceptive methods failed or couples conceived an "unauthorized" pregnancy without a state birth permit, the pressure to abort was immense.
Coercive Terminations: Local family planning officials faced strict penalties if their regions exceeded birth quotas. This dynamic led to widespread forced or heavily coerced abortions, sometimes carried out late into the second or third trimester.
Sex-Selective Abortion: Due to deep-rooted patriarchal traditions, particularly in rural agrarian communities, families heavily favored having a son to carry on the family name and provide elder care. The proliferation of ultrasound technology in the 1980s allowed parents to determine the sex of the fetus, resulting in a staggering surge of sex-selective abortions of female fetuses. This ultimately skewed China's sex ratio at birth to an unnatural high of roughly 114 to 118 boys for every 100 girls.
I was also aware that Matteo Ricci went to great lengths to understand the people he was living amongst and aiming to bring to Christ. A missionary is going to struggle if he doesn't try to get to know the people and culture that shaped them. By learning about their culture, language, traditions, you ingratiate yourself to them and become a true friend, not merely a foreigner who has barged in and brings in new ways and culture but cares not at all about the ties that bind a people already. Ricci was wise to do so.
Excerpt; When Beijing insists that it, and not the Vatican, decides who may use that title, it is following this old rule exactly. To the Chinese state, the wrong person in the wrong office is not a small paperwork problem.[The Chinese Communist State]
It is the danger Zhengming was invented to stop.
The Chinese State do not recognize Christ as God, or Christ as having any authority over their lives whatsoever. You haven't mentioned Christ in relation to the Communist State. How did you avoid this?
Excerpt: Seen this way, a citizen who defies the government is not using his rights. He is like a son rebelling against his father. That explains why Chinese state media describes protesters as betraying the family bond, rather than as people who just disagree about a policy.
You and the current govt of China seem to be fine with treating its people like this:
The Chinese government, led by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP), utilizes a comprehensive, high-tech apparatus to maintain political control, enforce social stability, and suppress any perceived opposition. This system targets political dissidents, human rights defenders, and religious groups—including underground Catholics—through sophisticated digital censorship, legal mechanisms, and harsh punitive detention.
1. Digital Censorship and Mass Surveillance
China maintains what is considered the world's most sophisticated infrastructure for information control.
The Great Firewall: The government controls all internet gateways into the country, blocking foreign social media networks, news outlets, and websites (such as Google, Wikipedia, Facebook, and the BBC).
Platform Self-Censorship: Domestically, Chinese tech companies and social media platforms (like WeChat and Weibo) are legally mandated to self-censor. Automated AI algorithms and human review teams continuously delete posts, scrub keywords, and ban accounts discussing sensitive topics.
Real-Name Registration: Citizens must link their real identification documents to phone numbers and internet accounts. This removes anonymity, allowing authorities to easily track who posts dissenting content.
Mass Biometric Surveillance: Millions of AI-powered facial recognition cameras, voiceprint recognition tools, and DNA databases allow the state to track citizens' physical movements and associations in real-time.
2. Control and Persecution of Catholics
Religious practice in China is heavily regulated under a state policy known as "Sinicization," which requires all religious organizations to prioritize allegiance to the atheist CCP above all else.
The government officially recognizes five religions, including Catholicism, but only through state-run associations—specifically the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association.
Article: It’s High Time We Tell the Truth about the Evils of Marx and Marxism by Paul Kengor
In The Devil and Karl Marx, I’ve attempted to do just that.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/09/karl-marx-marxism-conservatives-must-tell-truth-about-evils-communism/
How does one miss all this? I don't know.